I see the comment thread turned into a pickup forum, so I’d better return to your topic…
“It points to the importance of keeping one’s word. Her salesman guy didn’t really keep his word. He tried to wiggle out of what he promised.” Almost as bad as the famous “Muffler bearing” salesman. It’s amazing how this kind of behavior can still leak into an established dealership. You’d think the competition would be great enough to where a truck salesman wouldn’t dare try that stunt out of fear of getting promptly bounced and replaced by one of a line of applicants for the position.
In fairness, we didn't complain to the management or owner of the dealership. We would have, had the work not been completed when it finally was, but as he finally complied with his agreement we didn't take it further.
Our family has not purchased a new car since 1988. That being said, all the vehicles we own are either first or second owner. The newest one we have is the commute car I use, and it’s a 1999, 27 years old.
For quite a while, our good Brother Jerry Vaudrin had dabbled in government surplus vehicles, purchasing them at auction, cleaning/repairing them, then re-selling them on the civilian market. It’s kind of a side-hack for him, and he also gets some pretty cool vehicles that he uses as his daily drivers. My family has two of them. One was owned by the Elma School District, and the other one was owned by the City of Auburn. And yes, when we purchased them, for $600 each, they needed some work. They had about 130,000 miles on them, give or take. That being said, the School District car (which I commute with) now passed 267,000 miles and still gets the same fuel economy it did when I purchased it. I still have less than $5,000 in it, not counting the repair from damage caused by crashing into a curb on the Yelm highway, which was NOT the car’s fault. People were telling me I made a mistake by not buying a new car. They’re not saying that anymore, and the more miles we put on those two cars, the less inclined I am to purchase a brand-new car. I consider it cash in the trash.
“But wait, Clayton, you’re a grease-monkey on the side! That’s not fair.” Okay, yes, I did replace the brakes on both cars, and did some driveline work and bearings on the commute car, as well as ignition system work on the other car. But I also had the entire front suspension replaced by a shop after the accident, so I didn’t do 100% of the work on the car. I’m still WAY ahead of the costs of a new car.
So what happens if one of those two cars gets unrepairable due to a collision, etc.? That’s easy. Back to the auction. If it’s the commute car that falls apart, I’ll likely get a Prius due to the fuel economy. New? No need to. I know better now. But I want to see how far I can get with this car. I’m curious! Reliability? Sheesh, with these new cars lately and the stories I’ve heard from not a few, but several mechanics and tire/alignment shops, my car and the new cars are almost a push as to what’s more reliable. And that’s a shame. We’ve really fallen from 20-30 years ago.
I am extremely pleased with my now quite old 2001 Chevy Silverado. My dad bought it new, put a couple thousand miles on it, decided he wanted a black on instead, so sold it to me.
It's only ever had one serious problem, and that was due to something that would probably never effect anyone else. I lost a brake line driving through town one day. But that's because cow manure got on the brake line between the cab and the bed, where it degraded the metal. (I had hauled a good bit of the stuff home for fertilizing my flowerbeds.
Anyway, I've read quite a few articles claiming that this generation of Silverado is the most reliable, highest quality one ever built, out performing the newer ones because after this generation fairly extreme things that harm reliability had to be done in order to meet environmental impact regulations.
I've also been extremely pleased with our little Jeep Renegade. It's not nearly as old of course, and it is as plain jane as can be, but it has been completely reliable (other than the tire blowout mentioned in the post.) Funny thing is, it is branded Jeep, but is actually a Fiat, made in Italy.
The thing with that Renegade is, it is extremely comfortable for long drives. Despite being quite plain, I don't get all stiff on long drives like I do in some other cars.
The new one is a Compass, unlike the Renegade, extremely fancy. Everything inside is super soft leather, and its got every 'smart car' feature one could imagine. We took a drive up to Tacoma the other day, and I spent the entire drive fiddling with the big computer display, trying to figure out what everything does.
As you know, we have a 1972 Chevrolet Caprice, and we have pulled it out of the carport and are getting it back out on the road. Back in the early 1970’s, the Chevrolet division decided to see how far they could push luxury up against the fancier divisions, and were uncomfortably close to Cadillac with their latest versions in 1971 and later, forcing Cadillac to make tough decisions. The point here is that this Caprice was considered a Luxury car back in that day. The car is quiet (road noise as well as engine noise,) solid with acceleration and economy for its day with the 400 small block, and has features that were considered fancy back then. It’s ridiculously comfortable with a plush 6-way power bench seat with a fold-down armrest. You can easily fall asleep behind the wheel with this car. Fits 6 people, not bad on fuel for its day, and not bad looking either.
Nowadays? People would call it a “Boat” but it actually weighs less than a Chevy Traverse, which is more shaped like a whale. As I recently discussed with Craig Sullivan, the Traverse also gets better fuel economy, but 50 years of technology tends to do that. Nowadays? It’s all about “Smart” stuff. The car “knows” more than you, and as Hyundai claims in their commercials, it’s “How it should be.”
John Stossel noted in a recent interview that Weymos and other self-driving cars are safer than human-driven vehicles, citing several reasons. John’s got a point! We’re naturally aggressive and inattentive behind the wheel, which is a horrible combination. But the car being “smarter” than us is highly reliant on a myriad of sensors and cameras that monitor the location and actions of the car, and if any of them fail, it “blinds” the car’s ability to detect hazards and other motorists. This makes the car maintenance-intensive if it is to function properly as it did when it was purchased new. Edwin and I were able to get a 54-year old car out of a multi-year slumber without much trouble. Will that be the case for cars made in the last couple of decades? I guess we’ll see.
For commute, use-it-up and toss it, yeah, let’s go the hybrid scooter-car. But for Luxury? Yeah, I consider that a long-term investment and would rather go with a car that’s going to be around for a while.
I remember that era Caprice quite well. My grandparents had one, and loved the car. There was plenty of room to throw us for grandkids into the back seat to head off on some adventure or another.
I still remember though, it had a distinctive smell. Not a bad smell, but a really distinctive one, and that smell never went away. I presume that was to do with the upholstery.
Yes. Older, aging upholstery. Our 1966 LeSabre smells almost like an unrestored car from the late 1940’s, which might lead to the fabric used in the upholstery, but also how it ages out. The 1972 does smell different, and when you get into the late 1970’s and later, now you’re getting into that strong chemical smell that’s affectionately called “new car smell.” I will concede it eventually “cooks out” of the interior over time, but it never really goes away. But I will note to you that I rode in that 1966 car as a kid, and the smell hadn’t really changed in 45 years. Must be the fabric and vinyl in the seats and the pile carpet. Not sure.
I will also readily concede that when GM downsized the B-body (Impala, 88, LeSabre, etc.) in 1977, it was a solid move. After climbing through a 1978 Caprice that a neighbor was working on, the car weighed almost 800 pounds less, yet had MORE room in the interior and the trunk. And the smaller 305 motor could offer performance similar to the 350 of the year before. So you got all the nice stuff and the room, similar performance but better fuel economy.
We're counting down to having several loans paid off in the next 18 months, and we could use something larger - Tahoe/Explorer size - for when we need to travel more than 30 miles to get the dogs to the vet.
I am REALLY want something equipped with the Duramax 3 L I-6, even if I have to put up with the silly, poorly planned but more or less durable 10 speed transmission.
Ford offers the equivalent transmission, but not the I-6.
and it appears that models with that I-6 are holding value well on the used marketplace, even as GMC chose to put the oil pump drive belt on the AFT end of the engine, where it is, due to the way the oil pan interfaces with the bell housing, needful to separate the engine and transmission to service the flexible belt about ever 50K miles.
I keep thinking about getting a new truck, but I can't justify it. When we go anywhere, we always take whatever small SUV Mrs. Bailey has at the moment, so my truck pretty much only goes around our little city. Once in a great while a bit further, but a trip for it longer than maybe 30 miles is extremely rare. Because of this, it just doesn't have any miles on it to speak of.
But I'm also thinking, about getting an old truck. There's a beautiful, like new looking 73' Chevy at one of those collectable car dealerships. I love those older ones, but of course I'd be sacrificing reliability to a pretty big extent.
“I love those older ones, but of course I'd be sacrificing reliability to a pretty big extent.”
Compared to your current one? …yeah, I’ll agree with that to a point. Those older Chevys are pretty bulletproof, as long as you maintain them. But the same applies to the 1999-2004 pickups. The engines started getting potentially damaging after that point due to the Displacement on Demand components, although that can be fixed, but only after serious disassembly of the engine. The new ones are horribly complex and like the above mention, an oil pump drive belt that requires serious engine disassembly as a 50,000 mile maintenance item??? Wow. I’ll take the 1973 pickup any day over a brand new one. Heck, I could restore that 1973 pickup to new for less than a new one, likely.
I'll agree, an old '73 is easy to fix, and pretty rock solid. But, I don't think as reliable as my '01. At least as my memory serves from when I was young.
My primary concern with the new ones is that they turn themselves off and on. Starting an engine, at least as I understand it, puts more wear on an engine than anything else. To have that happen, over and over, without reason, just seems crazy to me.
“…an old '73 is easy to fix, and pretty rock solid. But, I don't think as reliable as my '01. *At least as my memory serves from when I was young.*”
At least as your memory serves when you were young. This is key, as you would definitely be correct. The reliability of a 1973 vehicle in the late 1970’s vs. a 2001 vehicle in the late 2000’s would be vastly different. The technology was notably different in that 30-year span, which not only affected the vehicle, but other items related to that vehicle, such as motor oil, fuel, and items on the engine, body, frame, etc. that are changed out via maintenance, such as alternators, suspension bushings, brakes, etc. A well-maintained 1973 pickup won’t have its original brakes, alternator, and definitely not the motor oil when it was new. That pickup might have the same style of Delcotron alternator in it that it had when new, but the components in it are updated. Brake materials have improved. And the oils? It’s almost impossible to find non-synthetic oil now. You could get it back in 1973, but it was extremely expensive. Older vehicles that survived the decades to get to this era will be running as well, if not better, than before due to these improvements.
If you take that 1973 pickup and do a full frame-up restore on it, including rebuilding the powertrain and the suspension systems, and put it up against the 2001 pickup truck that was also restored in the same manner, I’ll agree that improvements in design over 28 years will make the 2001 pickup more economical, easier to maintain, and also, yes, more reliable than the 1973 pickup. But not by as much as many would think, not as a knock on the 2001 model, but by how much better the 1973 pickup would be compared to when it was new.
We’ve been mentioning how wonky the vehicles built in the past decade are vs. those from the 1990’s and early 2000's, with the horribly difficult ways to maintain them and their relative delicacy and weird characteristics such as the start-stop that can make a new vehicle more likely to break down without constant maintenance. If you think about it, the same thing happened with the cars from the late 1970’s with the emissions control equipment, then the early computer fuel and ignition controls. In both cases, the government forced the vehicle companies to comply with regulations that the technology at the time couldn’t accomplish. In the 1970’s, it took more than a decade for the technology to catch up with the mandates. Now? I’m thinking it’s the push for EV’s, but it sounds like the lack of interest, and push-back, is more now than anything negative concerning the EPA regulations in the late 1970’s.
I see what you're saying here. New parts for old truck are better than old parts for old truck, so more reliable than when new decades ago. That's solid and makes sense.
I think that EV's are a solid solution for the future, but, in my view, EV's that are capable of generating their own electrical power. Diesel Electric Locomotive anyone? Relying completely on battery power is too limiting in my view.
Especially here in Washington where we are removing electrical generation capacity, and at the same time increasing the demand for electricity. Government logic at its finest.
While I had service done on my Sienna, my wife sat with a salesman and bought a new RAV4 (traded in her older RAV4 that had the Trailer hitch on it)! She refused to have the trailer hitch moved onto the new HYBRID RAV4)? Hmmm...
I've seen people cover the ball with a cut-open tennis ball. similar idea with the visibility, but it can also retain the grease on the ball for the next time you hitch something up.
I think the tennis ball idea was for those hitch balls that were bolted to the step bumper (like mine,) as opposed to the receiver hitch balls that are easier to remove and store.
Yeah, I think you're right. Many years ago, I used one of those locking pins through the receiver hitch on my truck. And now I've lost the key! So unless I cut through that pin, my hitch isn't coming out of the receiver!
Reading this felt reminiscent of one of the nursery tales I recall... Something about a golden goose and not killing it? It really did look nearly brand new though.
I see the comment thread turned into a pickup forum, so I’d better return to your topic…
“It points to the importance of keeping one’s word. Her salesman guy didn’t really keep his word. He tried to wiggle out of what he promised.” Almost as bad as the famous “Muffler bearing” salesman. It’s amazing how this kind of behavior can still leak into an established dealership. You’d think the competition would be great enough to where a truck salesman wouldn’t dare try that stunt out of fear of getting promptly bounced and replaced by one of a line of applicants for the position.
In fairness, we didn't complain to the management or owner of the dealership. We would have, had the work not been completed when it finally was, but as he finally complied with his agreement we didn't take it further.
Our family has not purchased a new car since 1988. That being said, all the vehicles we own are either first or second owner. The newest one we have is the commute car I use, and it’s a 1999, 27 years old.
For quite a while, our good Brother Jerry Vaudrin had dabbled in government surplus vehicles, purchasing them at auction, cleaning/repairing them, then re-selling them on the civilian market. It’s kind of a side-hack for him, and he also gets some pretty cool vehicles that he uses as his daily drivers. My family has two of them. One was owned by the Elma School District, and the other one was owned by the City of Auburn. And yes, when we purchased them, for $600 each, they needed some work. They had about 130,000 miles on them, give or take. That being said, the School District car (which I commute with) now passed 267,000 miles and still gets the same fuel economy it did when I purchased it. I still have less than $5,000 in it, not counting the repair from damage caused by crashing into a curb on the Yelm highway, which was NOT the car’s fault. People were telling me I made a mistake by not buying a new car. They’re not saying that anymore, and the more miles we put on those two cars, the less inclined I am to purchase a brand-new car. I consider it cash in the trash.
“But wait, Clayton, you’re a grease-monkey on the side! That’s not fair.” Okay, yes, I did replace the brakes on both cars, and did some driveline work and bearings on the commute car, as well as ignition system work on the other car. But I also had the entire front suspension replaced by a shop after the accident, so I didn’t do 100% of the work on the car. I’m still WAY ahead of the costs of a new car.
So what happens if one of those two cars gets unrepairable due to a collision, etc.? That’s easy. Back to the auction. If it’s the commute car that falls apart, I’ll likely get a Prius due to the fuel economy. New? No need to. I know better now. But I want to see how far I can get with this car. I’m curious! Reliability? Sheesh, with these new cars lately and the stories I’ve heard from not a few, but several mechanics and tire/alignment shops, my car and the new cars are almost a push as to what’s more reliable. And that’s a shame. We’ve really fallen from 20-30 years ago.
I am extremely pleased with my now quite old 2001 Chevy Silverado. My dad bought it new, put a couple thousand miles on it, decided he wanted a black on instead, so sold it to me.
It's only ever had one serious problem, and that was due to something that would probably never effect anyone else. I lost a brake line driving through town one day. But that's because cow manure got on the brake line between the cab and the bed, where it degraded the metal. (I had hauled a good bit of the stuff home for fertilizing my flowerbeds.
Anyway, I've read quite a few articles claiming that this generation of Silverado is the most reliable, highest quality one ever built, out performing the newer ones because after this generation fairly extreme things that harm reliability had to be done in order to meet environmental impact regulations.
I've also been extremely pleased with our little Jeep Renegade. It's not nearly as old of course, and it is as plain jane as can be, but it has been completely reliable (other than the tire blowout mentioned in the post.) Funny thing is, it is branded Jeep, but is actually a Fiat, made in Italy.
The thing with that Renegade is, it is extremely comfortable for long drives. Despite being quite plain, I don't get all stiff on long drives like I do in some other cars.
The new one is a Compass, unlike the Renegade, extremely fancy. Everything inside is super soft leather, and its got every 'smart car' feature one could imagine. We took a drive up to Tacoma the other day, and I spent the entire drive fiddling with the big computer display, trying to figure out what everything does.
As you know, we have a 1972 Chevrolet Caprice, and we have pulled it out of the carport and are getting it back out on the road. Back in the early 1970’s, the Chevrolet division decided to see how far they could push luxury up against the fancier divisions, and were uncomfortably close to Cadillac with their latest versions in 1971 and later, forcing Cadillac to make tough decisions. The point here is that this Caprice was considered a Luxury car back in that day. The car is quiet (road noise as well as engine noise,) solid with acceleration and economy for its day with the 400 small block, and has features that were considered fancy back then. It’s ridiculously comfortable with a plush 6-way power bench seat with a fold-down armrest. You can easily fall asleep behind the wheel with this car. Fits 6 people, not bad on fuel for its day, and not bad looking either.
Nowadays? People would call it a “Boat” but it actually weighs less than a Chevy Traverse, which is more shaped like a whale. As I recently discussed with Craig Sullivan, the Traverse also gets better fuel economy, but 50 years of technology tends to do that. Nowadays? It’s all about “Smart” stuff. The car “knows” more than you, and as Hyundai claims in their commercials, it’s “How it should be.”
John Stossel noted in a recent interview that Weymos and other self-driving cars are safer than human-driven vehicles, citing several reasons. John’s got a point! We’re naturally aggressive and inattentive behind the wheel, which is a horrible combination. But the car being “smarter” than us is highly reliant on a myriad of sensors and cameras that monitor the location and actions of the car, and if any of them fail, it “blinds” the car’s ability to detect hazards and other motorists. This makes the car maintenance-intensive if it is to function properly as it did when it was purchased new. Edwin and I were able to get a 54-year old car out of a multi-year slumber without much trouble. Will that be the case for cars made in the last couple of decades? I guess we’ll see.
For commute, use-it-up and toss it, yeah, let’s go the hybrid scooter-car. But for Luxury? Yeah, I consider that a long-term investment and would rather go with a car that’s going to be around for a while.
I remember that era Caprice quite well. My grandparents had one, and loved the car. There was plenty of room to throw us for grandkids into the back seat to head off on some adventure or another.
I still remember though, it had a distinctive smell. Not a bad smell, but a really distinctive one, and that smell never went away. I presume that was to do with the upholstery.
Yes. Older, aging upholstery. Our 1966 LeSabre smells almost like an unrestored car from the late 1940’s, which might lead to the fabric used in the upholstery, but also how it ages out. The 1972 does smell different, and when you get into the late 1970’s and later, now you’re getting into that strong chemical smell that’s affectionately called “new car smell.” I will concede it eventually “cooks out” of the interior over time, but it never really goes away. But I will note to you that I rode in that 1966 car as a kid, and the smell hadn’t really changed in 45 years. Must be the fabric and vinyl in the seats and the pile carpet. Not sure.
I will also readily concede that when GM downsized the B-body (Impala, 88, LeSabre, etc.) in 1977, it was a solid move. After climbing through a 1978 Caprice that a neighbor was working on, the car weighed almost 800 pounds less, yet had MORE room in the interior and the trunk. And the smaller 305 motor could offer performance similar to the 350 of the year before. So you got all the nice stuff and the room, similar performance but better fuel economy.
We're counting down to having several loans paid off in the next 18 months, and we could use something larger - Tahoe/Explorer size - for when we need to travel more than 30 miles to get the dogs to the vet.
I am REALLY want something equipped with the Duramax 3 L I-6, even if I have to put up with the silly, poorly planned but more or less durable 10 speed transmission.
Ford offers the equivalent transmission, but not the I-6.
and it appears that models with that I-6 are holding value well on the used marketplace, even as GMC chose to put the oil pump drive belt on the AFT end of the engine, where it is, due to the way the oil pan interfaces with the bell housing, needful to separate the engine and transmission to service the flexible belt about ever 50K miles.
sigh.
Tahoe's are awesome.
I keep thinking about getting a new truck, but I can't justify it. When we go anywhere, we always take whatever small SUV Mrs. Bailey has at the moment, so my truck pretty much only goes around our little city. Once in a great while a bit further, but a trip for it longer than maybe 30 miles is extremely rare. Because of this, it just doesn't have any miles on it to speak of.
But I'm also thinking, about getting an old truck. There's a beautiful, like new looking 73' Chevy at one of those collectable car dealerships. I love those older ones, but of course I'd be sacrificing reliability to a pretty big extent.
“I love those older ones, but of course I'd be sacrificing reliability to a pretty big extent.”
Compared to your current one? …yeah, I’ll agree with that to a point. Those older Chevys are pretty bulletproof, as long as you maintain them. But the same applies to the 1999-2004 pickups. The engines started getting potentially damaging after that point due to the Displacement on Demand components, although that can be fixed, but only after serious disassembly of the engine. The new ones are horribly complex and like the above mention, an oil pump drive belt that requires serious engine disassembly as a 50,000 mile maintenance item??? Wow. I’ll take the 1973 pickup any day over a brand new one. Heck, I could restore that 1973 pickup to new for less than a new one, likely.
I'll agree, an old '73 is easy to fix, and pretty rock solid. But, I don't think as reliable as my '01. At least as my memory serves from when I was young.
My primary concern with the new ones is that they turn themselves off and on. Starting an engine, at least as I understand it, puts more wear on an engine than anything else. To have that happen, over and over, without reason, just seems crazy to me.
“…an old '73 is easy to fix, and pretty rock solid. But, I don't think as reliable as my '01. *At least as my memory serves from when I was young.*”
At least as your memory serves when you were young. This is key, as you would definitely be correct. The reliability of a 1973 vehicle in the late 1970’s vs. a 2001 vehicle in the late 2000’s would be vastly different. The technology was notably different in that 30-year span, which not only affected the vehicle, but other items related to that vehicle, such as motor oil, fuel, and items on the engine, body, frame, etc. that are changed out via maintenance, such as alternators, suspension bushings, brakes, etc. A well-maintained 1973 pickup won’t have its original brakes, alternator, and definitely not the motor oil when it was new. That pickup might have the same style of Delcotron alternator in it that it had when new, but the components in it are updated. Brake materials have improved. And the oils? It’s almost impossible to find non-synthetic oil now. You could get it back in 1973, but it was extremely expensive. Older vehicles that survived the decades to get to this era will be running as well, if not better, than before due to these improvements.
If you take that 1973 pickup and do a full frame-up restore on it, including rebuilding the powertrain and the suspension systems, and put it up against the 2001 pickup truck that was also restored in the same manner, I’ll agree that improvements in design over 28 years will make the 2001 pickup more economical, easier to maintain, and also, yes, more reliable than the 1973 pickup. But not by as much as many would think, not as a knock on the 2001 model, but by how much better the 1973 pickup would be compared to when it was new.
We’ve been mentioning how wonky the vehicles built in the past decade are vs. those from the 1990’s and early 2000's, with the horribly difficult ways to maintain them and their relative delicacy and weird characteristics such as the start-stop that can make a new vehicle more likely to break down without constant maintenance. If you think about it, the same thing happened with the cars from the late 1970’s with the emissions control equipment, then the early computer fuel and ignition controls. In both cases, the government forced the vehicle companies to comply with regulations that the technology at the time couldn’t accomplish. In the 1970’s, it took more than a decade for the technology to catch up with the mandates. Now? I’m thinking it’s the push for EV’s, but it sounds like the lack of interest, and push-back, is more now than anything negative concerning the EPA regulations in the late 1970’s.
I see what you're saying here. New parts for old truck are better than old parts for old truck, so more reliable than when new decades ago. That's solid and makes sense.
I think that EV's are a solid solution for the future, but, in my view, EV's that are capable of generating their own electrical power. Diesel Electric Locomotive anyone? Relying completely on battery power is too limiting in my view.
Especially here in Washington where we are removing electrical generation capacity, and at the same time increasing the demand for electricity. Government logic at its finest.
While I had service done on my Sienna, my wife sat with a salesman and bought a new RAV4 (traded in her older RAV4 that had the Trailer hitch on it)! She refused to have the trailer hitch moved onto the new HYBRID RAV4)? Hmmm...
Did you leave the ball on the receiver hitch one day so that she smacked her shin on it perhaps? Having done that a time or two, that's real pain! 🤠
Haha, yeah many times! I've even thought about painting the ball safety yellow!
Yep, it's painful!
I've seen people cover the ball with a cut-open tennis ball. similar idea with the visibility, but it can also retain the grease on the ball for the next time you hitch something up.
I just decided that I was too clumsy and inattentive to avoid whacking myself, so decided that I needed to remove it whenever not in use.
I think the tennis ball idea was for those hitch balls that were bolted to the step bumper (like mine,) as opposed to the receiver hitch balls that are easier to remove and store.
That makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, I think you're right. Many years ago, I used one of those locking pins through the receiver hitch on my truck. And now I've lost the key! So unless I cut through that pin, my hitch isn't coming out of the receiver!
Reading this felt reminiscent of one of the nursery tales I recall... Something about a golden goose and not killing it? It really did look nearly brand new though.